Prisons failing ‘by every metric’ says former governor – Channel 4 News

We speak to John Podmore – a former high-security prison governor who also headed up the prison service’s counter corruption unit.

Ciaran Jenkins: John, it’s incredible, really, isn’t it? The doors are slammed shut, but the windows are wide open. The government’s had six months. Could it have put a stop to this?

John Podmore: Well, it’s not a new problem. The problems have been there for a long time and Charlie Taylor talked about ceding control of the skies. But the Prison and Probation Service has ceded control of prisons themselves – and there’s talk there of serious organised crime on the outside. Well, it’s serious organised crime, working with serious organised crime on the inside. And I think it’s clear from everything that Charlie Taylor has been saying for some time now that the prison service has lost control of many of its jail. There’s a hierarchy of organised crime within the prisons that’s replaced a hierarchy of prison management and it seriously needs to be dealt with. And the prison service needs to involve the National Crime Agency in all of this. This should be about partnership working. It’s not just a prison problem. It’s a wider crime issue.

Ciaran Jenkins: The new government has been in power for six months. And viewers might be wondering, well, how hard can it possibly be?

John Podmore: Well, the prison service has been failing by every metric, as reported by both Charlie Taylor and the chief inspector of prison. And it’s been failing by every metric for about a decade now.

Ciaran Jenkins: But what do we need to do next? Do we need new windows? What can they actually physically put in place to stop drones dropping weapons into high security jails?

John Podmore: Well, as Charlie said, there were nets but they were damaged. There were cameras that weren’t working. But it’s not just about physical issues. I mean, Guernsey Prison, for example, has got the equivalent of an electronic net around its prison. There are methods. There are sophisticated technological methods which can help deal with the drones. But what I’m saying is that those…the contraband that’s coming into the prison is then being managed in the prison, being received in the prison by serious organised criminals who are using the contraband, particularly the drugs, to make an awful lot of money. And I would estimate that the drug trade in prison is worth about £1 billion. So it’s dealing with issues on the outside.

Ciaran Jenkins: £1 billion?

John Podmore: £1 billion, yes.

Ciaran Jenkins: If they can smuggle in the drugs for the drugs economy, they can smuggle in guns, presumably?

John Podmore: Yes, they can and they can smuggle them in with drones. We have a staff corruption problem and they could theoretically be smuggled in by staff. But what the prison service needs to do, it needs to work with the National Crime Agency and get a grip of serious organised crime in prisons. And it’s about managing the prisoners. It’s about managing the prison. It’s about staff having control. And if you read Charlie Taylor’s reports, he’s regularly reporting demoralised staff, badly led and badly supported by prison service headquarters. And that’s an issue that needs to be got to grips with. The last government didn’t do it, and it’s looking like this government is being ‘Yes, Ministered’ into well, it’s all a bit difficult. It’s not just about money. This is the people business and it’s about managing people and managing serious organised crime. And it’s failing by every metric, as I’ve just said.

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